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Meat Head thread (weights and lifting..)

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Well said IOWNU, the information and studies need to be used in the context of this discussion, not general dietary guidelines.

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I'm not ready to get back on topic yet :P

 

Buoy, you need to stop reading other people's second hand information and have a look at actual studies. No one here is going to argue that 2 eggs per day is not detrimental to the diet and health (Chenoweth et al, 1981; Schnohr, 1994; and Chakrabarty et al, 2004), that's not what we are debating here. Read my post properly and you'll note that i said "a lot of eggs daily" (granted, i didn't really specific a quantifiable amount). 2 eggs is not "a lot", i'm talking about the guys who are having 3-4 egg omelette in the morning and more boiled eggs through the day. Studies have shown that eating eggs in this quantity daily does increase serum cholesterol and LDL levels (Ginsberg, 1994; Zanni, 1987; Sutherland, 1997; Oh, 1985; and Weggemans, 2001) and this effect is greater in men than women, elderly than young, and ‘hyper-responders’ than ‘hypo-responders’ (my VPN client isn’t connecting at the moment so I’m a bit restricted in my database searches).

 

I CBF attaching a reference list, look em up.

 

Oh, and I’m pretty certain that the health of the French is in a large part attributable to their small serving portions.

 

ahhhhh your post wasn't up when I started writing mine, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. lol :lol:

But yeah looks like we're on the same levels. :yes:

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this was my diet. but never stuck to it

 

breakfast

Oats and protein shake

 

lunch

- 150g chicken

- fruits

- can't remember

 

big lunch

- 150g tuna

- fruits

- protein shake

- bread

 

dinner

- 150g tuna/ chicken

- fruits

- rice

 

supper

- 8 eggs (6 whites, 2 yolks)

- protein shake

 

now i cant remember, so edit it if its wrong.

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lol i was told by a bodybuilder guy, that i shouldnt eat fruit after the afternoon coz of the fructose/sugar etc etc

 

but say i trained at night, it was ok to have 1 b4 the session.

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lol i was told by a bodybuilder guy, that i shouldnt eat fruit after the afternoon coz of the fructose/sugar etc etc

 

but say i trained at night, it was ok to have 1 b4 the session.

:lol:

Yeah we all have a bodybuilder guy we look up to as newbies!

 

Anyways, from what I've heard and read, fruit isn't so bad. It's especially good while cutting because it supplies your body with an instant source of energy that is easily burnt up and unlikely to be stored as fat in a calorie-defecient state. It's great to keep your metabolism running.

 

So yeah, its definantly ok during the day and before/during your session. lol obviously you wouldn't eat any before bed though.

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what if i need energy to help me sleep? hahah

 

 

 

 

 

 

clearly sarcasm lol

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Most of you guy's know I like to push buoy's buttons,but the fact is he is correct 99% of the time.

I reckon I eat about 30-40 whole eggs a week.

My diet consists of only

chicken(no hormone)

steak

tuna(once a week,not a fan of mercury)

eggs

vegetables

fruit

milk

nuts

Get Big Protein Drink(milk,whey powder,yoghurt,eggs,banana)

Thats it.No bread,rice,pasta.I eat 6-9 meals a day,every 2 1/2 hours I'm awake.

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Most of you guy's know I like to push buoy's buttons,but the fact is he is correct 99% of the time.

I reckon I eat about 30-40 whole eggs a week.

My diet consists of only

chicken(no hormone)

steak

tuna(once a week,not a fan of mercury)

eggs

vegetables

fruit

milk

nuts

Get Big Protein Drink(milk,whey powder,yoghurt,eggs,banana)

Thats it.No bread,rice,pasta.I eat 6-9 meals a day,every 2 1/2 hours I'm awake.

 

Just noticed that you emphasised the chicken having no hormones lol :lol:

Without having to search the net and absorb info, what benifits does going organic have?

 

Also...30-40 whole eggs lol!

:o

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wat nuts do u mean? i was actually lookin at some in my cupboard. lol

 

what about pumpkin seeds? lol i was reading, in an ounce, they contain 15g fat, 7g protein etc etc so i unno, r they too high in fat content to snack on? mind u who knows how many in an ounce... heaps i guess lol

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I eat about 4-5 eggs a day. Yolk and all. My cholesterol levels are normal.

 

When you are "bodybuilding" you need to eat more than the maintenance dose recommended by the heart foundation :rolleyes: it makes perfect sense to, since you are exceeding the recommended doses of protein and carbohydrates as well.

 

What can I say. How about flipping the script. How about if you wanted to kill yourself. If you really think eating half a dozen eggs a day is going to make you keel over in a decade, I think you'll be sorely surprised...... that you'd be still around and healthy.

 

Egg yolks may have 5 grams of cholesterol, but eggs also contain a substance that renders most of that cholesterol UNABLE to be absorbed by the body.

 

So in reality the 5 grams of cholesterol (which is the good cholesterol by the way, HDL) is actually not all going to be absorbed by your body. You'd be lucky if 1 gram got absorbed.

 

And the few grams of yolk that do get ingested are put to good use:

Egg yolks can inhibit cells from sticking together (platelet aggregation) and also prevent blood coagulation, two major risk factors for heart disease and stroke. Egg yolks prohibit platelet aggregation in a dose-dependent manner, meaning the more you consume, the more effective the results. 1

 

Furthermore, to those advocates who simply consume eggwhites, raw or otherwise - CAVEAT:

There are suggestions that one should not eat raw egg whites. This is because raw egg whites contain a lipoprotein called avidin that is very effective at binding biotin, one of the B vitamins. The concern is that this can lead to a biotin deficiency. The simple solution is to cook the egg whites as this deactivates the avidin. The problem is that this cooking also deactivates nearly every other protein in the egg white. Although you will still obtain nutritional benefits from consuming cooked egg whites, from a nutritional perspective it would seem far better to consume them uncooked. There is a lot of biotin in the egg yolk, one of the highest concentrations of biotin found in nature, so it is unlikely that you will have a biotin deficiency if you consume the whole raw egg, yolk and white. However, it is clear that if you only consume raw egg whites, you may develop a biotin deficiency unless you take a biotin supplement. Note: be aware that when pregnant a biotin deficiency is common and eating raw eggs may make this worse) 2

 

Also, to compound your line of thinking, consider this:

It has been shown that controling cholesterol for the sake of controlling cholesterol is NOT specifically beneficial in preventing congestive heart failure and in fact LOW cholesterol levels actually make life that much worse for anyone who does get failure. It has actually been found that statin used to control heart failure must be used against conventional "wisdom" (read: ol skool bureaucracy crap about cholesterol = bad) and step up to the plate. He SAYS this as clear as daylight, and I quote:

 

The purpose of statin therapy in CHF

Dr. Stephen D. Anker, National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, London, UK

Dr. Anker noted that the findings described by Dr. Landmesser are part of the reason that investigators think statins may have benefits in CHF that supercede the cholesterol lowering effects in HF patients.

 

He and co-investigators have previously documented the link between lower total cholesterol and a worse prognosis in CHF. [3]

 

He agreed with Dr. Landmesser, that statin therapy has a different function in the management of CHF, and referred to his recently published comments. [4]

He offered some practical suggestions to clinicians regarding ways to use statins beneficially in patients with CHF.

 

"Remember that the aim is not to lower cholesterol," he said. "Don't ask patients to lose weight, to avoid eggs, or to watch their cholesterol levels."

 

If a low dose is used, as in the trial Dr. Landmesser reported, statin therapy will have pleiotropic effects, such as improvement of endothelial function, and patients' cholesterol should remain stable.

3

 

... in bold for everyone to see.

 

In summary, if you're scared of eating too many egg yolks cos of the "cholesterol", I'm not going to stop you. I'm just presenting you with the information that this whole thing about eggs raising your blood cholesterol is mythological at worst, right at best (if we talk about excessive amounts)... and fwiw I've been eating eggs with the yolk for the best part of a decade.... and my cholesterol levels as of 2 months ago are normal :thumbsup:

 

same with a study on an 88 year old man who simply ate eggs all day (25 on average) - was shown to have NORMAL cholesterol levels.*

 

 

So yeah, just something to think about. You guys have plenty to go on to make up your own mind about eggs. Personally I think you'd have to eat a shitload to bump up your cholesterol, not only from studies but from personal experience from the last decade of my life... but hey, I could have the genetics to cope with it, who knows.

 

An easy way to find out is to EAT THE EGGS! :lol: if you're worried your cholesterol is going to become elevated - take a blood test down at your local medical center. It's FREE!!!!! :lol: it's not going to kill you overnight, so if you do it for 3 months and your cholesterol is up then ok, no harm no foul.

 

But if it's fine. Mate....... how much worry have you been putting yourself through... for nothing? eh? :rolleyes:

thats what i'd do if i were you. actually that IS what i do. it doesn't matter with eggs or protein shakes or anything. regular checkups and monitoring yourself with your GP is something you guys SHOULD be doing a few times a year anyway.

 

the last checkup saw my blood sugar level go up a notch, pointing to my fat belly, and I adjusted. see? why fly blind in the nutritional aerospace when you got a GP that gives you your heading for free every few months?

 

instead of worrying about IF you are going to be affected by diet changes, since these things take time and their effects are reversible, who not DO IT and monitor the results? simple.

 

:thumbsup:

Yld-Sky: je ne me pe caronnn poo poo ;) *eddie murphy* lol. grrrr.

 

-------------

* (5) Vorster, H.H. et al, Egg intake does not change plasma lipoprotein and coagulation profile. Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 1992 / 55 (2) / 400. , Kern, F. Jr. et al, Normal plasma cholesterol in an 88-year-old man who eats 25 eggs a day. Mechanisms of adaption. N. Engl. J. Med. 1991 / 324 (13) / 896-899. , Faidley, T.D. et al, Effect of dietary fat source on lipoprotein composition and plasma lipid concentration in pigs. J. Nutr.1990 / 120 (10) / 1126-1133. 4

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Lol....funny, every bb forum has the same arguments about egg yolks and the 'cholesterol' in them. I have about 60 eggs a week, about 30 of them being whole. Last week i had a checkup...perfect cholesterol level. And i have been doing this since last year.

 

My diet is pretty much exactly like m&m's. xcept i include wholemeal bread, brown rice and pasta into some of my meals.

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heh....... 4 or 5 eggs a day, sometimes i skip. thats about 20 eggs at least a week for me. all whole.

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can one of you big boys write up your full diet.

 

i want to get big too :D

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can one of you big boys write up your full diet.

 

i want to get big too :D

Lol.....and you want to use steroids???

 

Wake up

-4 weetbix/milk

-6 eggs scrambled

Multivitamins, glucosamine and fish oil

 

1.5hours later

- Bowl of oats/milk

-protein shake

 

 

2 hour later

- Can of tuna

-2 slices wholemeal bread

 

1.5 hours later

- 2 slices of wholemeal bread with peanut butter

 

1 hour later

- pasta

-some lean chicken/beef

 

2-2.5 hours later

-rice

-lean chicken/beef

-salad(usually greens and some tomatoes)

 

2Hours later

-protein shake with gatorade powder mixed in

 

1 Hour later

-creatine EE, no2

 

0.5 hours after

WORKOUT

 

Straight after workout

-Protein shake with gatorade powder/creatine mon

 

 

Get home

-blended shake with oats, 4 eggs, scoop of protein powder, milk, icecream

multivitamins, fish oil

 

PS. IF i dont workout i replace the pre workout protein shake with 4 weetbix/protein shake, then get home and have my blended drink or a chicken/beef meal, then go to bed.

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lol Bouy, you've got a thing or two to learn about research and levels of evidence. As you said yourself you eat about 20 per week which isn't over 4 per day average. m&m and 180mph are different stories, of course individual variation comes into it.

 

I'm not going to go on anymore, i think your last point is the most important one, if you are going to be consuming a large amount of cholesterol then get blood tests so that know if you're getting into a risky range.

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It's nothing for me to eat 3 steaks a day and 1 dozen eggs.I couldnt be healthier(or bigger).

 

Aside from milk,I very rarely eat anything made by man,no weetbix,bread,pasta.

 

Eat what nature provides and avoid diseases(and get big).It really is that simple.Just eat lots of it.

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bro sometimes goes through a carton of eggs in one day :o

often find alot of egg white sitting in the fridge, also the smell of a bowl of hard boiled eggs in the fridge is RANK.

 

not sure what/how he does things now, but he used to time his meal intakes, etc. to specific times when your body needs the nutrition, etc. its all over my head, but f**k he was keen! still is.....and it definatly pays off too. nutrition is like 70% of muscle growth or somethin?

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lol Bouy, you've got a thing or two to learn about research and levels of evidence. As you said yourself you eat about 20 per week which isn't over 4 per day average. m&m and 180mph are different stories, of course individual variation comes into it.

lol :lol: well, seeing as this is coming from a person who misinterpreted "at least 20 eggs a week" to mean the average, completely ignoring the "4-5 eggs a day" part in estimating a range of values, I can see that you can teach me a thing or two about research and levels of evidence :lol:

 

FWIW, so you don't get confused - ON AVERAGE I'd eat around 28 eggs a week. I mentioned 4-5 eggs a day, sometimes I skip - so the 20 was to give you a minimum range. The word 'sometimes' means just that - sometimes. 4-5 eggs a day without skipping is on a good week - JUST so there is no confusion and misinformation. lol. :thumbsup: cheers buddy.

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Buoy, you need to stop reading other people's second hand information and have a look at actual studies. No one here is going to argue that 2 eggs per day is not detrimental to the diet and health (Chenoweth et al, 1981; Schnohr, 1994; and Chakrabarty et al, 2004), that's not what we are debating here. Read my post properly and you'll note that i said "a lot of eggs daily" (granted, i didn't really specific a quantifiable amount).

bring it. time to get schooled neil_se :yes:

 

2 eggs is not "a lot", i'm talking about the guys who are having 3-4 egg omelette in the morning and more boiled eggs through the day. Studies have shown that eating eggs in this quantity daily does increase serum cholesterol and LDL levels (Ginsberg, 1994; Zanni, 1987; Sutherland, 1997; Oh, 1985; and Weggemans, 2001) and this effect is greater in men than women, elderly than young, and ‘hyper-responders’ than ‘hypo-responders’ (my VPN client isn’t connecting at the moment so I’m a bit restricted in my database searches).

 

I CBF attaching a reference list, look em up.

 

sure :thumbsup:

 

Kern. 1994. Effects of dietary cholesterol on cholesterol and bile acid homeostasis in patients with cholesterol gallstones. J. Clin. Invest. 93:1186-1194.

 

Sixteen women, eight controls and eight with cholesterol gallstones, were fed moderate- and high-cholesterol (5 eggs/day = 939 mg/day cholesterol) diets for 15-18 days and various parameters of cholesterol metabolism were measured. In control subjects the plasma cholesterol level increased by 6 mg/dl with cholesterol feeding (0.7 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) while in the gallstone subjects the plasma total cholesterol level was decreased by 8 mg/dl with intake of the high cholesterol diet. The study also found that in both groups cholesterol absorption and cholesterol synthesis were decreased on the high cholesterol diet. In both groups of patients, the body's response to a large increase in dietary cholesterol was sufficient to compensate for the increase resulting in little or no increase in plasma cholesterol levels.

 

 

 

To determine the effects of egg consumption on plasma HDL cholesterol levels, twenty-four adults added two eggs per day to their usual diets for six weeks. Total cholesterol levels were increased by 4% while HDL cholesterol levels increased 10%. The dose adjusted response to the change in dietary cholesterol was 2.4 mg/dl per 100 mg/day. The authors concluded that "a moderate egg intake should not be rigorously restricted in healthy individuals."

 

McComb et al. 1994. Attenuated hypercholesterolemic response to a high-cholesterol diet in subjects heterozygous for the apolipoprotein A-IV-2 allele.N. Engl. J. Med. 331:706-710.

 

 

 

 

Lichtenstein et al. 1994. Hypercholesterolemic effect of dietary cholesterol in diets enriched in polyunsaturated and saturated fat. Dietary cholesterol, fat saturation, and plasma lipids. Arterioscler. Thromb. 14:168-175.

 

Studies in fourteen men (n=8) and women (n=6) fed either corn oil (polyunsaturated fat) or beef tallow (saturated fat) with or without addition of 197-226 mg cholesterol per 1000 kcal, documented little effect of dietary fat saturation on the plasma cholesterol response to dietary cholesterol. In the corn oil fed group the addition of cholesterol increased plasma cholesterol 11 mg/dl (dose adjusted: 3.9 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) and in the beef tallow group the increase was the same, 11 mg/dl (dose adjusted: 3.8 mg/dl per 100 mg/day). The findings are consistent with other studies which indicate that with a 30% fat diet, the plasma cholesterol response to dietary cholesterol is independent of the fatty acid composition of the diet. The study also provides evidence which suggests that resistance to the effects of dietary cholesterol occurs in older men and women and is not limited to only young, healthy volunteers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jones et al. 1994. Interaction of dietary fat saturation and cholesterol level on cholesterol synthesis measured using deuterium incorporation. J. Lipid Res. 35:1093-1101.

 

These investigators tested the effects of dietary fat and cholesterol on the regulation of cholesterol synthesis in older men (n=6) and women (n=8). The study subjects were fed diets high in either polyunsaturated fat, corn oil, or saturated fat, beef tallow, with and without addition of 120 mg cholesterol per 1000 kcal. Dietary cholesterol increased plasma cholesterol levels by 12 mg/dl (dose adjusted response = 4.1 mg/dl per 100 mg/day change in dietary cholesterol) and there was no difference between the dietary polyunsaturated and saturated fat groups. The results from this study provide evidence that one effect of an increase in dietary cholesterol is a decease in cholesterol synthesis by the body to compensate for the change. The precision of this mechanisms helps maintain plasma cholesterol levels constant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ginsberg et al. 1995. Increases in dietary cholesterol are associated with modest increases in both LDL and HDL cholesterol in healthy young women. Arterioscler. Thromb. Vasc. Biol. 15:169-178.

 

A controlled dietary cholesterol feeding study in thirteen young women tested the effects of feeding zero, one, or three eggs per day on plasma lipids and lipoproteins. The data indicated that the dose adjusted plasma cholesterol response was 2.8 mg/dl per 100 mg/day dietary cholesterol (a value higher than that obtained in males in the 1994 study). In women, however, the increase in total plasma cholesterol with dietary cholesterol occurred in both the atherogenic LDL cholesterol (2.1 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) and the anti-atherogenic HDL cholesterol (0.6 mg/dl per 100 mg/day). As found in the previous study in healthy young men, young women have the ability to compensate for an increased intake of cholesterol by adjusting the way cholesterol is handled by the body. The data show that addition of two eggs per day to the diet of healthy young women has little effect on plasma cholesterol levels in the majority of study subjects.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- now, I am a kind person, and I understand the studies you are referring to have some merit, but you must understand that the raising of blood cholesterol levels are for a very SPECIFIC GROUP of people ---

 

 

 

this is what you were trying to puport as an all blanketing all affecting source alluding to your maxim: more than 4 eggs a day raises blood cholesterol. for a few people that fit THIS description then yes:

 

Knopp et al. 1996. A double-blind, randomized trial of the effects of two eggs per day in moderately hypercholesterolemic and combined hyperlipidemic subjects consuming the NCEP Step I diet. (Reported in abstract at the November 1995 American Heart Association meeting in Anaheim, CA)

 

Studies in middle-aged men and women with either moderate hypercholesterolemia (n=44) or combined hyperlipidemia (elevated plasma cholesterol and triglyceride, n=31) were fed either no eggs or two eggs per day as part of a NCEP Step I diet. Subjects with moderate hypercholesterolemia were found to have a dose adjusted plasma cholesterol response to added dietary cholesterol of 1.6 mg/dl per 100 mg/day whereas combined hyperlipidemic individuals are more sensitive to dietary cholesterol and have an average dose response factor of 3.2 mg/dl per 100 mg/day change in dietary cholesterol. The authors concluded that middle aged men and women with elevated plasma cholesterol levels were not more sensitive to dietary cholesterol compared to subjects with normal cholesterol levels. In contrast, middle aged patients with combined hyperlipidemia appear to be more sensitive to dietary cholesterol and in their case dietary cholesterol restrictions appear more appropriate.

 

 

As you can see from the above, your research and evidence points to a very specific group of people. NOT the majority of young people surfing ns.com which are more likely to be in the 12-24 age group.

 

You need to examine the facts properly and how they fit in with the demographic of people before using the "evidence" as a means to prove your point.

 

 

 

You have been schooled. ;) Go in peace and learn from the experience.

 

 

 

Oh, and I’m pretty certain that the health of the French is in a large part attributable to their small serving portions.

 

:lol: hang on... you go on about the importance of citing actual research and you end your retort with a baseless oneliner? :no: dude.... comeon. lol.

 

its all good :thumbsup: fwiw just test your body regularly with medical checkups - as that is what we both agree on - it's better to work on what we agree on than what separates us. the way of the world innit :)

 

 

ps: when i said you were schooled i was just goshing - joking! it's all good mang. but you know i had to do it :) heh. cos what you were saying was, well, it just had to be put into perspective. YES eating eggs can raise your blood cholesterol level if you have moderate hypercholesterolemia and fall within a certain age group. For everyone else, it's a non event dude. Our body is smart enough to compensate for the added cholesterol in our diet by absorbing less cholesterol. :thumbsup: cheers.

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Buoy, you need to stop reading other people's second hand information and have a look at actual studies. No one here is going to argue that 2 eggs per day is not detrimental to the diet and health (Chenoweth et al, 1981; Schnohr, 1994; and Chakrabarty et al, 2004), that's not what we are debating here. Read my post properly and you'll note that i said "a lot of eggs daily" (granted, i didn't really specific a quantifiable amount).

bring it. time to get schooled neil_se :yes:

 

2 eggs is not "a lot", i'm talking about the guys who are having 3-4 egg omelette in the morning and more boiled eggs through the day. Studies have shown that eating eggs in this quantity daily does increase serum cholesterol and LDL levels (Ginsberg, 1994; Zanni, 1987; Sutherland, 1997; Oh, 1985; and Weggemans, 2001) and this effect is greater in men than women, elderly than young, and ‘hyper-responders’ than ‘hypo-responders’ (my VPN client isn’t connecting at the moment so I’m a bit restricted in my database searches).

 

I CBF attaching a reference list, look em up.

 

sure :thumbsup:

 

Kern. 1994. Effects of dietary cholesterol on cholesterol and bile acid homeostasis in patients with cholesterol gallstones. J. Clin. Invest. 93:1186-1194.

 

Sixteen women, eight controls and eight with cholesterol gallstones, were fed moderate- and high-cholesterol (5 eggs/day = 939 mg/day cholesterol) diets for 15-18 days and various parameters of cholesterol metabolism were measured. In control subjects the plasma cholesterol level increased by 6 mg/dl with cholesterol feeding (0.7 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) while in the gallstone subjects the plasma total cholesterol level was decreased by 8 mg/dl with intake of the high cholesterol diet. The study also found that in both groups cholesterol absorption and cholesterol synthesis were decreased on the high cholesterol diet. In both groups of patients, the body's response to a large increase in dietary cholesterol was sufficient to compensate for the increase resulting in little or no increase in plasma cholesterol levels.

 

 

 

To determine the effects of egg consumption on plasma HDL cholesterol levels, twenty-four adults added two eggs per day to their usual diets for six weeks. Total cholesterol levels were increased by 4% while HDL cholesterol levels increased 10%. The dose adjusted response to the change in dietary cholesterol was 2.4 mg/dl per 100 mg/day. The authors concluded that "a moderate egg intake should not be rigorously restricted in healthy individuals."

 

McComb et al. 1994. Attenuated hypercholesterolemic response to a high-cholesterol diet in subjects heterozygous for the apolipoprotein A-IV-2 allele.N. Engl. J. Med. 331:706-710.

 

 

 

 

Lichtenstein et al. 1994. Hypercholesterolemic effect of dietary cholesterol in diets enriched in polyunsaturated and saturated fat. Dietary cholesterol, fat saturation, and plasma lipids. Arterioscler. Thromb. 14:168-175.

 

Studies in fourteen men (n=8) and women (n=6) fed either corn oil (polyunsaturated fat) or beef tallow (saturated fat) with or without addition of 197-226 mg cholesterol per 1000 kcal, documented little effect of dietary fat saturation on the plasma cholesterol response to dietary cholesterol. In the corn oil fed group the addition of cholesterol increased plasma cholesterol 11 mg/dl (dose adjusted: 3.9 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) and in the beef tallow group the increase was the same, 11 mg/dl (dose adjusted: 3.8 mg/dl per 100 mg/day). The findings are consistent with other studies which indicate that with a 30% fat diet, the plasma cholesterol response to dietary cholesterol is independent of the fatty acid composition of the diet. The study also provides evidence which suggests that resistance to the effects of dietary cholesterol occurs in older men and women and is not limited to only young, healthy volunteers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jones et al. 1994. Interaction of dietary fat saturation and cholesterol level on cholesterol synthesis measured using deuterium incorporation. J. Lipid Res. 35:1093-1101.

 

These investigators tested the effects of dietary fat and cholesterol on the regulation of cholesterol synthesis in older men (n=6) and women (n=8). The study subjects were fed diets high in either polyunsaturated fat, corn oil, or saturated fat, beef tallow, with and without addition of 120 mg cholesterol per 1000 kcal. Dietary cholesterol increased plasma cholesterol levels by 12 mg/dl (dose adjusted response = 4.1 mg/dl per 100 mg/day change in dietary cholesterol) and there was no difference between the dietary polyunsaturated and saturated fat groups. The results from this study provide evidence that one effect of an increase in dietary cholesterol is a decease in cholesterol synthesis by the body to compensate for the change. The precision of this mechanisms helps maintain plasma cholesterol levels constant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ginsberg et al. 1995. Increases in dietary cholesterol are associated with modest increases in both LDL and HDL cholesterol in healthy young women. Arterioscler. Thromb. Vasc. Biol. 15:169-178.

 

A controlled dietary cholesterol feeding study in thirteen young women tested the effects of feeding zero, one, or three eggs per day on plasma lipids and lipoproteins. The data indicated that the dose adjusted plasma cholesterol response was 2.8 mg/dl per 100 mg/day dietary cholesterol (a value higher than that obtained in males in the 1994 study). In women, however, the increase in total plasma cholesterol with dietary cholesterol occurred in both the atherogenic LDL cholesterol (2.1 mg/dl per 100 mg/day) and the anti-atherogenic HDL cholesterol (0.6 mg/dl per 100 mg/day). As found in the previous study in healthy young men, young women have the ability to compensate for an increased intake of cholesterol by adjusting the way cholesterol is handled by the body. The data show that addition of two eggs per day to the diet of healthy young women has little effect on plasma cholesterol levels in the majority of study subjects.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- now, I am a kind person, and I understand the studies you are referring to have some merit, but you must understand that the raising of blood cholesterol levels are for a very SPECIFIC GROUP of people ---

 

 

 

this is what you were trying to puport as an all blanketing all affecting source alluding to your maxim: more than 4 eggs a day raises blood cholesterol. for a few people that fit THIS description then yes:

 

Knopp et al. 1996. A double-blind, randomized trial of the effects of two eggs per day in moderately hypercholesterolemic and combined hyperlipidemic subjects consuming the NCEP Step I diet. (Reported in abstract at the November 1995 American Heart Association meeting in Anaheim, CA)

 

Studies in middle-aged men and women with either moderate hypercholesterolemia (n=44) or combined hyperlipidemia (elevated plasma cholesterol and triglyceride, n=31) were fed either no eggs or two eggs per day as part of a NCEP Step I diet. Subjects with moderate hypercholesterolemia were found to have a dose adjusted plasma cholesterol response to added dietary cholesterol of 1.6 mg/dl per 100 mg/day whereas combined hyperlipidemic individuals are more sensitive to dietary cholesterol and have an average dose response factor of 3.2 mg/dl per 100 mg/day change in dietary cholesterol. The authors concluded that middle aged men and women with elevated plasma cholesterol levels were not more sensitive to dietary cholesterol compared to subjects with normal cholesterol levels. In contrast, middle aged patients with combined hyperlipidemia appear to be more sensitive to dietary cholesterol and in their case dietary cholesterol restrictions appear more appropriate.

 

 

As you can see from the above, your research and evidence points to a very specific group of people. NOT the majority of young people surfing ns.com which are more likely to be in the 12-24 age group.

 

You need to examine the facts properly and how they fit in with the demographic of people before using the "evidence" as a means to prove your point.

 

 

 

You have been schooled. ;) Go in peace and learn from the experience.

 

 

 

Oh, and I’m pretty certain that the health of the French is in a large part attributable to their small serving portions.

 

:lol: hang on... you go on about the importance of citing actual research and you end your retort with a baseless oneliner? :no: dude.... comeon. lol.

 

its all good :thumbsup: fwiw just test your body regularly with medical checkups - as that is what we both agree on - it's better to work on what we agree on than what separates us. the way of the world innit :)

 

 

ps: when i said you were schooled i was just goshing - joking! it's all good mang. but you know i had to do it :) heh. cos what you were saying was, well, it just had to be put into perspective. YES eating eggs can raise your blood cholesterol level if you have moderate hypercholesterolemia and fall within a certain age group. For everyone else, it's a non event dude. Our body is smart enough to compensate for the added cholesterol in our diet by absorbing less cholesterol. :thumbsup: cheers.

 

Jeez just agree to disagree!!

lol.

I mean look how much time/effort you went through...... :wacko:

:P

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You're going to school me Buoy? :lol: Let's go: Just a word of advice, don't try to draw conclusions that have nothing to do with that study.

 

 

Ginsberg, 1995. “The results of this study indicate that healthy young women, like their male couterparts, respond to higher dietary cholesterol intakes by modestly increasing their plasma total cholesterol levels in a linear fashion.” No where in the article do they talk about the body’s compensation for increased dietary cholesterol. Your last sentence doesn’t even seem to relate to this study :S

 

McCombs, 1994. Are you sure you’re reading the right article :S The high cholesterol diet consisted of 4 egg yokes, and there was a significant increase in plasma cholesterol in both groups. I’m pretty sure it was actually Schnohr (1994) who concluded “A moderate egg intake should not be rigorously restricted in healthy individuals.”

 

Kern, 1994. Don’t misquote results. They actually stated “there was no consistent change [in cholesterol synthesis] on the high-cholesterol diet”, but you’re right, there was a decrease in cholesterol absorption in both groups, yet there was still an overall (but insignificant) increase in plasma cholesterol.

 

Lichtenstein, 1994. Again, don’t draw conclusions that can’t be deduced from the data. In both the corn and beef tallow groups the plasma total cholesterol and LDL concentrations significantly increased in the high cholesterol diets. The same results were found by Zanni (1987).

 

Jones, 1994. Once again your conclusions are completely wrong. “Our data suggest that synthesis remained unchanged in the groups studied, which may have accounted for the raised plasma total and LDL levels observed with added dietary cholesterol with feeding of both corn oil and beef tallow” (p1098).

 

 

And now back to my evidence:

 

 

Ginsberg 1994. Subjects consumed diets containing either 0, 1, 2, or 4 eggs per day. “Cellular free cholesterol levels were slightly higher on each of the egg-containing diets versus the 0-egg diet. "In summary, increases in dietary cholesterol resulted in linear increases in fasting total and LDL cholesterol in young, healthy men.”

 

And best of all, a meta-analysis covering 17 studies and 556 subjects:

 

Weggemans 2001. One additional egg daily will increase total cholesterol by 4.3gm/dL and LDL by 3.9mg/dL. “In conclusion, the consumption of cholesterol increases the ratio of total to HDL-cholesterol, which would predict increased risk of coronary heart disease. Therefore, the advice to limit the consumption of eggs and other foods in dietary cholesterol may still be important in the prevention of coronary heart disease.”

 

 

And then on your last point:

 

Part of the "French paradox" can be explained by the fact that the French eat less than Americans. (Rozin et al, 2003). In general, food packaging and common portion sizes of popular dishes are 25% larger in the U.S. than in France where rates of obesity are lower (Lediwke et al, 2005).

 

 

So in conclusion, you haven't provided a single article to support your argument, in fact they all completely supported mine :rolleyes:

 

 

Ginsberg HN, Karmally W, Barr SL, Johnson C, Holleran S, Ramakrishnan R. (1994). Effects of increasing dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids within the guidelines of the AHA step 1 diet on plasma lipid and lipoprotein levels in normal males. Arterioscler Thromb. 14(6):892-901.

 

Ledikwe JH, Ello-Martin JA, Rolls BJ. (2005). Portion sizes and the obesity epidemic. J Nutr. 135(4):905-9.

 

Rozin P, Kabnick K, Pete E, Fischler C, Shields C. (2003). The ecology of eating: smaller portion sizes in France Than in the United States help explain the French paradox. Psychol Sci. 14(5):450-4.

 

Weggemans RM, Zock PL, Katan MB. (2001). Dietary cholesterol from eggs increases the ratio of total cholesterol to high-density lipoprotein cholesterol in humans: a meta-analysis. Am J Clin Nutr. 73(5):885-91.

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I know tuna is the most common 'high protein meal' but i f**kin hate tuna! Wat else compares to it that you can get in a can?

 

 

if you hate tuna, there is not really much that can help you.. the thing is its not just the fact its high in protien, but its also got essential fatty acids and omega oils that are best availible from fresh fish etc, but all is not lost...if you want something with a really high protein and your a red meat eater like me, then try kangaroo its has the highest source of protien then any other red meat and the lowest fat content, its really lean or if white meat is your thing then go with turkey....once again very lean and high in protein

 

oh and try and get some omega3-6 oils from your local health food shop tate like shit but its good for you..... :P

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And best of all, a meta-analysis covering 17 studies and 556 subjects:

 

Weggemans 2001. One additional egg daily will increase total cholesterol by 4.3gm/dL and LDL by 3.9mg/dL. “In conclusion, the consumption of cholesterol increases the ratio of total to HDL-cholesterol, which would predict increased risk of coronary heart disease. Therefore, the advice to limit the consumption of eggs and other foods in dietary cholesterol may still be important in the prevention of coronary heart disease.”

 

"may still be important" :lol: that is far from drawing a conclusion.

 

And then on your last point:

 

Part of the "French paradox" can be explained by the fact that the French eat less than Americans. (Rozin et al, 2003). In general, food packaging and common portion sizes of popular dishes are 25% larger in the U.S. than in France where rates of obesity are lower (Lediwke et al, 2005).

 

thats interesting. i have no qualms accepting things when explained properly and you have explained yourself. well done in that regard.

 

So in conclusion, you haven't provided a single article to support your argument, in fact they all completely supported mine :rolleyes:

 

bwhaahahaaha :lol: you seriously expect people reading what I wrote to be fooled by that one liner :lol: comeon neil. wakey wakey :thumbsup: did you even read what I highlighted? :lol: its right there. in fact that single line of obvious hot air has really dampened my expectations. I was expecting some serious rebuttal here, but its extremely poor in both the manner of retort and the content.

 

If you can't see "a single article" to support my argument you must be blind my son :lol: I mean, I give credit where credit is due, but if you're going to insist on putting up some pseudo wall of impenetrable logic where you discredit even the most stalwart studies that I have quoted which support my argument and simply say after all that that I "havent provided a single article to support your argument" then I really can't see what you are hoping to achieve. People reading this thread are smart people too and saying I haven't provided a single article to support my argument when it is blatantly clear that I have just detracts from your own credibility :)

 

people will read your one liner, think "hang on a sec", scroll up to what I have wrote and realise your comment just doesn't make sense - only takes 5 seconds for people to do - and its a shame you have chosen such a response to my references - could have been a good argument.

 

But ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating my friend - and myself, 181 and m&m are living breathing examples that consuming a fair amount of eggs will still give you normal cholesterol levels. You can fling cow dung at my arguments and citations if you want :) you can't detract from the fact that the three gym junkies on ns.com all eat a bucketload of eggs and have normal cholesterol levels. In your world, that simply isn't possible by your supporting "evidence". By your point of view, me, 181 and m&m should all have elevated cholesterol-saturated bodies :lol:

 

wake up and smell the cheese. oh, and try and keep your eyes a bit more open when reading my citations, as they obviously support my argument. :thumbsup:

 

cheers.

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Not much omega 3 in Tuna.

 

I take 20 fish oil tabs a day,thats the easiest 180 calories you'll ever get.

 

Many eggs,many squats,many muscles.

 

If you dont want bitch tits like Adro,avoid estrogen injected chickens,and no one will call you Soy boy.Also avoid soy products.

 

On the subject of diet,most people dont train hard enough to warrant high levels of protein,300 grams plus.

 

The most succesful weight team in the world was the Bulgarian Olympic Weightlifting team.They trained 3 times a day,6 days a week,and on Sunday,just once.

They trained from 9.00am to 12.00,second session was 4.00pm till 6.30pm,the last session began at 9.00pm.They used 90% of 1RM in every workout.They performed squats in every session,thats 19 squat sessions a week.They turned the weightlifting world on it's ear.They new a thing or two about recovery,and anabolics,but everyone was using.The body will adapt,just make sure you feed it enough protein and fat.Hell,most people on here dont squat 19 times a year,then they complain they dont grow.

Diet really is simple,if man made it,dont eat it,eat every 3 hours mininum,train using basic excersises,dont use machines,stand whenever possible,get lots of rest,and grow.Your only concern with eggs should be if you are eating enough,not too many.

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Your only concern with eggs should be if you are eating enough,not too many.

:lol: yeah. it's amazing how people who have been doing the bulking up / diet / training thing for years and years can disagree about a lot of things except for eggs :) - this is one of those points that you, myself and 181 all agree upon, yet we got other detractors. it's just funny thats all lol.

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Nice try Buoy, have you even read all the full text of all the journal articles you quoted? The bits you have bolded are not comments of the authors and are completely unsupported by the evidence.

 

Above i have quoted actual exerpts from actual studies to prove my point. No misguided interpretations were required unlike yourself. I can't believe you actually just responded with that drivel above to a well structured argument quoting actual results done by myself. Anyone with a decent level of education just read what i wrote, followed by what you did and laughed :lol:

 

Every article i included above supported my argument that increases in dietary cholesterol leads to increased plasma cholesterol and LDL levels. You have still not proved a single bit of evidence otherwise, but instead interpreted the results and made ludicrous unrelated conclusions.

 

And then you finish with this poor excuse for an argument "But ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating my friend - and myself, 181 and m&m are living breathing examples that consuming a fair amount of eggs will still give you normal cholesterol levels." You're trying to argue against meta-analyses and RCTs with case-studies :lol:

 

Go back and re-read what i wrote Buoy then come back with a factual argument.

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Jeez just agree to disagree!!

lol.

I mean look how much time/effort you went through...... :wacko:

:P

It's sunday evening so I can't do anymore even if I wanted to. He's a good egg neil_se... but he's a bit lost in the realm of theory and study.

 

I think I remember a nice quote about theory and practice, and it goes a bit like this:

 

In theory, a theory should produce the same resuts as in practice.

In practice, it doesn't.

 

:thumbsup:

 

bah..... 6pm sunday. and them's tha brakes. if neil responds further, i'd love to say something but as you can see i've dedicated more than enough time and supporting citations for readers to make up their own minds. taking a blood test every few months is the best way to keep yourself on the safe side, and large amounts of eggs, even if you were sensitive to it, takes years to cake up your artery walls, and is reversible with a lower cholesterol diet, so you're safe no matter what the outcome. just keep the tests regular :thumbsup:

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Nice try Buoy, have you even read all the full text of all the journal articles you quoted? The bits you have bolded are not comments of the authors and are completely unsupported by the evidence.

 

Above i have quoted actual exerpts from actual studies to prove my point. No misguided interpretations were required unlike yourself. I can't believe you actually just responded with that drivel above to a well structured argument quoting actual results done by myself. Anyone with a decent level of education just read what i wrote, followed by what you did and laughed :lol:

 

Every article i included above supported my argument that increases in dietary cholesterol leads to increased plasma cholesterol and LDL levels. You have still not proved a single bit of evidence otherwise, but instead interpreted the results and made ludicrous unrelated conclusions.

 

And then you finish with this poor excuse for an argument "But ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating my friend - and myself, 181 and m&m are living breathing examples that consuming a fair amount of eggs will still give you normal cholesterol levels." You're trying to argue against meta-analyses and RCTs with case-studies :lol:

 

Go back and re-read what i wrote Buoy then come back with a factual argument.

lol.

Guys let it go.

There are arguments for and arguments against.

Let's leave it at that.

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neil_se: you're a good man, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. you obviously believe in your studies and that is to be commended. theres plenty of citations i've provided to support my argument so there is no need for more text, plus typing in "egg cholesterol" in google is showing that this view is not just my own but shared with the majority of the medical community.

 

cheers.

 

iownu: cheers dude, the adjudicator! :lol:

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