[Thomasino]

Ok, since every drift thread regarding an event at Mallala has turned into an argument about the tire stacks and their usefulness, I thought I'd start a dedicated thread for this kind of talk. And no, I'm not just opening the stage for other people to discuss, I've been doin a bit of work (I can't sleep).
Before I start, I'd just like to state I've never been on the track and encountered the tires. I know a lot of people couldn't care less and even use them as a marker to aim for, which is good and provides some interesting viewing (we all love watching the wall at Ebisu being scraped don't we?). But Mallala doesn't have a wall, instead, multiple stacks of 4 bundles of 3 tires.

The tires are apparently placed there in order to save drivers from plowing into the concrete wall, which is roughly a little less then the racetracks width from the edge of the track. However at recent events, accidents involving the tires have cost drivers as they hit the stacks just after a decent scando.

Lets have a look at the most common accident:
The car travels wide after the scando and usually the rear 1/4 collides with a tire stack. Motion of car is represented by the red arrows.


The car has now experienced a force where the impact was made. Due to the fact that the impact was behind the centre of the car, the car is turned in an anti-clockwise direction, as shown by the various arrows below (had it hit directly in the centre, it would continue its path of motion, slower).


The direction of travel is now altered in favor of the tires that caused the change of direction. The car is now 'hooked' in towards the wall/more tires.


If the car has not stopped now, escaping with only damage caused by one or two stacks (hit at 120km/h+), the wall is looking promising.


Recent video footage proves this theory:
Kalby pulls one hell of a scando and goes a little wide, making contact in the rear 1/4. You can imagine the motion of the rear of the car as it swings around.


That motion of the rear is suddenly stopped and the front has to account for this. The front is hooked around.


Despite opposite lock, the car is sent in its anti-clockwise spin out of control, towards the wall.




Contact with the wall is made still at a very high speed. Check out how much the tires absorbed the impact. This is a classic example of Newtons laws (I forgot which one). By the formula F=P/t, the force exherted on an object is directly proportional to the momentum it has (meaning, more momentum, more force), and inversely proportional to the time for the collision to occur (meaning, more time, less force. Less time, more force). The tires slow the collision down, rather then suddenly coming to rest courtesy of the concrete wall. This reduces the force on the car, thus reducing the damage.



Here's the video, thanks to Luke Terbeeke for the footage.
http://www.vimeo.com/7497734


Had the tires not been there, the path of motion would be similar to this:


Rear wheels go into dirt and have less traction. At this point, the drift is either held or the car spins into the huge open area Mallala has at the end of the straight.


The blue arrow represents the resultant movement of the car.


Simon goes wide on the first run in this video and continues to drift seemingly un effected.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5MCncGjs5AI


If the tires must be there, a safer arrangement could be adopted.
The first improvement is the chance of hitting the tires. As there is only the width of one tire (as opposed to four above) directly next to the track per bundle, there is less chance of the car colliding if the same number of bundles are used. ie, the distance between trackside tires on average is increased.


The same anti-clockwise rotation will still occur, but now the car is facing a tire stack perpendicular to its direct of travel. Previously, the car may not encounter any tires this close to the wall. There is move change of hitting the tire then hitting the wall.


The car is now face with multiple rows of tire stacks directly in its path of motion.


The car has either slowed down by now due to more collisions with better arranged tires or has sandwiched a tire stack between the car and the wall.




Multiple tire stacks can move freely and easily go under a car, potentially flipping it, as below:




once again Luke Terbeeke with the good.
*I would show stewy going over them but the photos have been removed form photobucket*

A more secure tire wall may be a better option, however it will still hook the car in and if its solid enough, potentially do more damage. To retain the absorbing qualities of a tire wall but reduce the 'hooking' effect it has, lining the wall with a flat sheet of rubber, as they do on other corners of the track, will give a flat surface upon contact, reducing the angle of the collision (as opposed to hitting the edge of a tire flat on).
Here's a bit of a diagram of what'll happen.









From this diagram and Newstons laws, I had a bit of an idea. Its absurd and it probably won't happen, but this system would act almost as a rubber band. The orange line represents a fance made of some material that is held through a small system of pullies that will absorb an impact and gently release the car back onto the track. This system is similar to that used by the catch cable on an aircraft carrier.








This sytem will stop head on collisions but will potentially cause other collision by interfering with what would normally just be a wide drift. This system would be very expensive and will rip up the grass (which is rumored to be the real motive of the tires). So, is extremely unlikely to happen.


Another alternative is to simply move the concrete wall right to the edge. This will be similar to Ebisu but more similar to Oran park.








Doing so will be extremely expensive and ruin the view from Deli Hill.


Another alternative (which will not ruin any grass) is to simply extend the ripple strip. Drifters will be discouraged to go wide by the extremely rough ripple strip and a loss of points given by the judges. This ripple strip would be similar to that at Meihan, seen in the following video.


We could also simply extend the bitumen right to the wall and allow it to be judged. This would provide for some truly epic entries and also give drifters the opportunity not to take the wider line. Put a photography/marshal bunker on the inside of turn one and you'll get some intense photos (help promote Mallala).



In conclusion, the cheapest, safest, and simplest option is to arrange the stacks differently. Apart from that, the track should be extended to the wall (allowing enough length for big entries) or a ripple strip placed. This wouldn't obstruct any view and possibly enhance the drifitng at mallala.
Of course there is always the option of removing the tires all together and going back to the good old days, maybe an instant lawn company would sponsor Mallala.



In the end, its a privilege for us to be allowed to drift and the track owners will do what they please, be it to save grass or save cars. We can voice our opinion and if need be, get sponsors on board and chip in, be it money or time, to do something ourselves.


Thanks a lot for reading the whole lot if you did, please keep discussion and possible solutions in here. I just hope we won't see a car go over and have a serious accident on these.

Tom.

[nisskid]

good thread, i havent read it all as its late. but one thing people have to remember going into those tyre is if ur going to swing the rear end out near the tyres, u need to commit, u cant have 2nd thoughts at the last 2nd and try and straighten, u shift the momentum of the car and u make it easy for the tyres to swing u around.

if you can, straighten up quick, before u get to the tyres (9:15 in this vid)


i have hit the tyres with the rear of my car quite a few times, yes most of the time it's just a light tap, but sometimes its been a proper hit, and not once did i feel the car feel like it wanted to change angle and straighten, i just hear a bang and that's it.

[-Brent-]

Thank f*ck for a decent explanation.
What are the tyres even there for? If they are there for safety, show me a worse off crash by hitting the wall without tyres.
And besides all that, it makes the track look plain stupid and very cheap.
Now would someone please listen to what Tom has explained. Physics is always right.
Now do something about it Mallala.

[nisskid]

Thomasino, on 09 November 2009 - 02:17 AM, said:

*I would show stewy going over them but the photos have been removed form photobucket*

thanks to stang




the lift from the tyres causing me to come down hard and dig into the grass, which is what put me up on 2 wheels

[nisskid]

-Brent-, on 09 November 2009 - 02:28 AM, said:

Thank f*ck for a decent explanation. Now would someone please listen to what Tom has explained. Physics is always right.
Now do something about it Mallala.

quite frankly, mallala dont give a shit, and it will take a roll over or a serious incident (obviously moreso than the crash nicko sustained giving him whiplash after being thrown into the wall from the tyres) for cams to give a shit.

mallala say those tyres are there for safety to cams, seriously, they actually try and spill that, even after saying they were put there to save the grass. so basically we need cams to say it's unsafe.

[Thomasino]

Stewy do you know who the person is to email this information to? Surely a bit of a report like this would make it obvious to them that the tires are causing more crashes then they're preventing?

[nisskid]

i'm assuming someone at cams, possibly even go in to cams in kent town and see what the go is.

btw what i reckon we need is long boards that stand up like a wall, they take a decent beating and can even be slightly tagged to a certain extent, but any decent hit and they just fold over and can be driven over without impacting the car too much. they've have to be anchored on a hinge at the bottom, and be fairly strong, so they'd do a bit of damage if u hit them, but they wont catch ur car, ull slide a long them if the hit is minor enough, and they will collapse really easy if the hit is hard enough, and can then be driven over.

then when the marshals come over, they just need to lift them back up into place, instead of straightening the bundles.

that will deter people from going there, as it will still do damage (not as much as tyres tho), and generally will have the visual impact that stops people.

only problem i see is hitting them side on, but im sure the design can be fine tuned from here, it's just a basic concept.

possibly even flexi poles anchored to the ground that will put a dent in ur car, but bend over as soon as u hit them so they wont knock ur car around much, and can be driven over without rolling u

[Thomasino]

nisskid, on 08 November 2009 - 05:17 AM, said:

i'm assuming someone at cams, possibly even go in to cams in kent town and see what the go is.

btw what i reckon we need is long boards that stand up like a wall, they take a decent beating and can even be slightly tagged to a certain extent, but any decent hit and they just fold over and can be driven over without impacting the car too much. they've have to be anchored on a hinge at the bottom, and be fairly strong, so they'd do a bit of damage if u hit them, but they wont catch ur car, ull slide a long them if the hit is minor enough, and they will collapse really easy if the hit is hard enough, and can then be driven over.

then when the marshals come over, they just need to lift them back up into place, instead of straightening the bundles.

that will deter people from going there, as it will still do damage (not as much as tyres tho), and generally will have the visual impact that stops people.

I really like this idea. Pring loaded boards would do the job for the Marshals. Would make for some great super slow motion replays of drifting while scraping the boards keeping them down at an angle haha.

Problem is will they take a full on beating if someone loses it?

[nisskid]

Thomasino, on 09 November 2009 - 02:58 AM, said:

nisskid, on 08 November 2009 - 05:17 AM, said:

i'm assuming someone at cams, possibly even go in to cams in kent town and see what the go is.

btw what i reckon we need is long boards that stand up like a wall, they take a decent beating and can even be slightly tagged to a certain extent, but any decent hit and they just fold over and can be driven over without impacting the car too much. they've have to be anchored on a hinge at the bottom, and be fairly strong, so they'd do a bit of damage if u hit them, but they wont catch ur car, ull slide a long them if the hit is minor enough, and they will collapse really easy if the hit is hard enough, and can then be driven over.

then when the marshals come over, they just need to lift them back up into place, instead of straightening the bundles.

that will deter people from going there, as it will still do damage (not as much as tyres tho), and generally will have the visual impact that stops people.

I really like this idea. Pring loaded boards would do the job for the Marshals. Would make for some great super slow motion replays of drifting while scraping the boards keeping them down at an angle haha.

Problem is will they take a full on beating if someone loses it?

as i said, they'd have to be strong, but lightweight, maybe sheets of alloy would do the trick. my thinking was that they'd be already leaning over, so that when u hit them, they would collapse really quick and easily, not taking much of the force. they'd get dinged up a fair bit, but if they did a bit of damage to the car, im sure mallala would be happy with them.

[GHOSTrun]

Why don't we have giant sponge blocks like japs have on their tracks?...seriously!

[HMAS]

Edit: Video was already in here.

Also have video of the cressy that hit Rd2. Good thread Tom.

[comodrifter]

similarly at the recent Drift Australia. there were a few sets of tyres stacked on the last judged corner. orginally put there to keep drifters away from the grass. As the judges wanted to see the slide continued from the previous corner you had to go wide just to link it. with many dropping a wheel and digging a pit next to the riple strip. the tyres ended up sitting on the strip where your optimum line would be clipping the tyre with your rear guard. tyres are used to discourage drifting close to the edge. and i do think foam may be the best option. but building a flat concrete wall on the edge would be alot more discouraging to drivers and safer than dynamic tyre stacks.

[blingcommander]

Quote

quite frankly, mallala dont give a shit, and it will take a roll over or a serious incident (obviously moreso than the crash nicko sustained giving him whiplash after being thrown into the wall from the tyres) for cams to give a shit.

i was in the grand stand when that happened and it was pretty messed up to watch. basicly exactly what happened in the top diagrams

[Thomasino]

comodrifter, on 08 November 2009 - 11:22 AM, said:

similarly at the recent Drift Australia. there were a few sets of tyres stacked on the last judged corner. orginally put there to keep drifters away from the grass. As the judges wanted to see the slide continued from the previous corner you had to go wide just to link it. with many dropping a wheel and digging a pit next to the riple strip. the tyres ended up sitting on the strip where your optimum line would be clipping the tyre with your rear guard. tyres are used to discourage drifting close to the edge. and i do think foam may be the best option. but building a flat concrete wall on the edge would be alot more discouraging to drivers and safer than dynamic tyre stacks.

We could always made the hole a bit bigger and have the ripple strip drop/follow the edge out meter or so. Would be similar to Eastern Creek but have a harsh, wide ripple strip rather then grass/fake grass.




Its fine to have a ditch here, which still can stuff your drift up.


And I think placing these foam blocks on the wall, or even 1m from the wall as a little bit more of a deterrent would be a good idea, plus it will give more space for the car to slow down in before hitting the wall.

[RxDrift]

i like the idea of flexi poles fixed to the ground. they could be placed 30cm or so from the track edge and give you a reference point for how close the edge is. the dint they would make should deter most people, and for judging you might lose points if you tap one.
the tyre stacks in my opinion are too heavy and uneven. it's difficult to predict which way the car will go after you hit them depending on exactly where it makes contact with the car.

i would also support a larger ripple strip.

[55psi]

nisskid, on 09 November 2009 - 01:57 AM, said:

i have hit the tyres with the rear of my car quite a few times, yes most of the time it's just a light tap, but sometimes its been a proper hit, and not once did i feel the car feel like it wanted to change angle and straighten, i just hear a bang and that's it.

If u compare the momentum difference between ur 4door, and a light as ke70, then ur 4door will have way more momentum due to more mass compared to the ke70, while a ke70 like the example vid above will have less momentum due to its low mass, therefore the tyres will swing a light car around on impact more aggressively. So its not just about commitment to a corner even tho it is important.
The only thing i can think of if the tyre placement doesnt change is if youve got quick reaction, and if u definately know ur gonna hit the tyres, straighten ur front wheels up mid drift so u dont get hooked around as much when u hit the tyres. lol

just my 2c

[HMAS]

As this has been going on for a while. The tires will be there to stay no matter what. I would love to go back to the old days, but that's not going to happen
But, as you showed Tom, if they were to change the setup of it and it would cause less damage. I remember a while back when Jake Jones collected the tires. He spun with the scando and when drivers door first into them with the window down. That was a bad hit. What they need is a "conveyor" belt so that drifters can skim across it.
Its not just the position of the tires which is the problem, but also the height.

[skylineguy19]

great thread tom, my thinking for a long time now is the best option is to continue the tyre stacks that are along pit entry against the wall up the straight to where the current ripple strip starts, if there is 3 deep tyre stack against th wall that whole way along that would be much better and safer than the current setup.

I do also support the widened track idea, wider ripple strip and the flexi pole ideas.

Lets keep this thread clean and on the topic guys and hopefully someone of importance will take notice of it.

[nisskid]

55psi, on 09 November 2009 - 10:54 AM, said:

nisskid, on 09 November 2009 - 01:57 AM, said:

i have hit the tyres with the rear of my car quite a few times, yes most of the time it's just a light tap, but sometimes its been a proper hit, and not once did i feel the car feel like it wanted to change angle and straighten, i just hear a bang and that's it.

If u compare the momentum difference between ur 4door, and a light as ke70, then ur 4door will have way more momentum due to more mass compared to the ke70, while a ke70 like the example vid above will have less momentum due to its low mass, therefore the tyres will swing a light car around on impact more aggressively. So its not just about commitment to a corner even tho it is important.
The only thing i can think of if the tyre placement doesnt change is if youve got quick reaction, and if u definately know ur gonna hit the tyres, straighten ur front wheels up mid drift so u dont get hooked around as much when u hit the tyres. lol

just my 2c

yeh i know what u mean, but the last thing u want to do is try and straighten at the last second, u need to do it before u get to the tyres, if u do it on the tyres, u shift the momentum and let the tyres swing u around.

[Thomasino]

Luke, those stacks were higher and heavier. They stop the car faster but really cause a heap of damage.


Extending the 3 deep tire wall to the start of the ripple is something I thought about also but if they were gonna leave the grass open they probably wouldn't bother putting more tires on the wall. And its not like there is a lack of tires, there's heaps stored around that house at turn 9 and around the place.


Other Luke, I think we discussed the converyer belt idea before. ITs an excellent idea especially if its removable as the grass will not suffer one bit. This does have its challenges; method of fixation, ensuring it will not become unstuck (and become a potentially deadly projectile), and probably the most challenging is how it wil meet the track. In order for the cars to get onto of it, the belt would need to start under the track. If it was simply next to the track, the tires would catch the edge and rip it up. Starting it under the track allows the tire to fall onto the belt.


Like I said, the easiest solution is the re-arrangement of the tires. An extended track/ripple strip paired with a three tire deep barrier on the wall would be the best constructed solution.

[driftnick13]

The best option is foam it is light and cheaper than concrete , it will cause the least damage to cars and save the grass.
one other big plus is it has a flat surface facing the crowd which could be used for advertising . sell the space pay it will pay for the foam and some extra cash for the track win for us and them.

[JoshJZX100]

Excellent thread

Extending the ripple strips would be ideal, but i cant see Clem spending the coin. So the next best thing is rearranging the tire stacks as you detailed before. Although the stacks will still be there, maybe.. just maybe, having them re-arranged will prevent cars being torpedoed into the wall after clipping the rear quarter on them at high speed.

Something has to be done, not sure what it is exactly, but im confident that the drifters of SA are sick and tired of having their cars damaged and totaled caused by there annoying tire stacks.

[nisskid]

driftnick13, on 09 November 2009 - 01:50 PM, said:

The best option is foam it is light and cheaper than concrete , it will cause the least damage to cars and save the grass.
one other big plus is it has a flat surface facing the crowd which could be used for advertising . sell the space pay it will pay for the foam and some extra cash for the track win for us and them.

yeh foam with a slippery mat on the front would be best, so it doesnt grab cars.

[Thomasino]

One requirement for the foam would have to be a decent height. I'm talking high enough so there is no chance at all of it going under the car (see the Team Burst photo above). Stewy, you mean a slippery mat like they have on the front of some of the tire walls (particularly exit of turn two)? Hanging/fixing it to the front is a great idea to stop the rear of the car digging in and hooking it around.

The foam would have to still retain its absorption properties and possibly even be light enough to be moved back once a car hits it, otherwise it'd almsot be the same as hitting a solid concrete wall, only you'll be hitting a solid foam wall

driftnick13 you're right, there would be a small grassed gap between the foam and the concrete wall, plenty of room for sponsors to hang banners, and just think how many people would see it.

The only issue now is not being able to see the entry very well form Deli Hill, but thats going to happen with whatever is placed there (unless the rippled strip option is chosen. You'll still see the scando and exit of turn one though.

[JiN_MaN]

I rung cams and made a complaint, they said put it in writing and they then can look into. Then when talked on NS I was told I was stuiped and that it was going to ruin the sport at mallala if I complained.

With an explanation like above there shouldn't be a problem in getting them changed to a more suitable solution. Ring CAMS and have a chat, its what they are there for. Its a good report

PS, its not a privilege to go to Mallala, its a business. You pay money, he lets you use the track, he wont take it away its a HUGE money maker for him between private days ($350 each person x what, 10 cars?)and practice days (60ish cars at $120)

(Privilege, A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste) We get no special anything, just extra items spread around the track to hit.

[nisskid]

Thomasino, on 09 November 2009 - 02:18 PM, said:

One requirement for the foam would have to be a decent height. I'm talking high enough so there is no chance at all of it going under the car (see the Team Burst photo above). Stewy, you mean a slippery mat like they have on the front of some of the tire walls (particularly exit of turn two)? Hanging/fixing it to the front is a great idea to stop the rear of the car digging in and hooking it around.

The foam would have to still retain its absorption properties and possibly even be light enough to be moved back once a car hits it, otherwise it'd almsot be the same as hitting a solid concrete wall, only you'll be hitting a solid foam wall

yeh, just something to stop the foam grabbing the car and yanking it around.

[JoshJZX100]

I give full credit to Thomasino for this...



Jin_Man, dont forget the $10 entry fees for practice nights and $20 for Events. Clem is cashed up and has more than enough money to fix these issues, he just cbf spending the money on extending the ripple strips ect.. cause he knows that eveyone bends over and takes it...

[nisskid]

JiN_MaN, on 09 November 2009 - 02:51 PM, said:

I rung cams and made a complaint, they said put it in writing and they then can look into. Then when talked on NS I was told I was stuiped and that it was going to ruin the sport at mallala if I complained.

With an explanation like above there shouldn't be a problem in getting them changed to a more suitable solution. Ring CAMS and have a chat, its what they are there for. Its a good report

PS, its not a privilege to go to Mallala, its a business. You pay money, he lets you use the track, he wont take it away its a HUGE money maker for him between private days ($350 each person x what, 10 cars?)and practice days (60ish cars at $120)

(Privilege, A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste) We get no special anything, just extra items spread around the track to hit.

exactly, drift is a huge $$ thing for mallala, even the grip guys know, regardless of what people think, the $$ drift brings to lala makes it better for everyone, without drift at mallala, everyone would be a lot worse off.

[TougeR34]

this is what i'd do

-concrete edge of track to ensure tarmac/edge of track is not ripped away
-Big square foam blocks medium density
-longer, thinner foam blocks, higher density
-tyres
-concrete wall


Winner for everything but the grass, cause it will die without sunlight.


edit: alternatively, pad ur car up with foam blocks.... =\

Attached image(s)

• 

[driftnick13]

nisskid, on 09 November 2009 - 01:36 PM, said:

driftnick13, on 09 November 2009 - 01:50 PM, said:

The best option is foam it is light and cheaper than concrete , it will cause the least damage to cars and save the grass.
one other big plus is it has a flat surface facing the crowd which could be used for advertising . sell the space pay it will pay for the foam and some extra cash for the track win for us and them.

yeh foam with a slippery mat on the front would be best, so it doesnt grab cars.

yeah i agree something like what the red low 180 at G1 had cable tied to the bottom of his front bar (cant remember what its called)
it would have enough slip to not grab the car and is still flexible .
the solutions are easy its getting something done in our favour thats the hard part.
personally i'd put in $100 towards foam if everyone who slides and hates the tyres did the same we can pay for it ourselves .